Illyria

Well, I always thought that the article should be under Illyria, but now there are quite a few pages that link to Ancient Illyria. Should we change all those articles to point to Illyria? At the very least we should probably change the links in the History of Albania series. Nextel ringtones Dori/Dori 15:02, Nov 12, 2003

Abbey Diaz Ancient Illyria is redirected to "Illyria". We have to change the links in the orientation tables of the History of Albania series. In other cases, the change is not strictky necessary. ~~

: Done. I also fixed some of the double redirects. Free ringtones Dori/Dori 23:13, Nov 12, 2003

Nonsense?

Moved this from article. Seems patent nonsense, but if it isn't, rewrite and put back in. Majo Mills Wyllium/Wyllium 23:41, 29 May 2004

It isn't nonsense, but it's a copyvio, so I'm going to delete it from here. Mosquito ringtone RickK/Rick'''Sabrina Martins User talk:RickK/K''' 23:42, 29 May 2004

It was misplaced anyway, that's about Nextel ringtones Illyria (television). Abbey Diaz User:Shallot/Shallot

Fwiw, I've just moved Free ringtones Illyria (television) to Majo Mills Illyria (Angel) — Cingular Ringtones OwenBlacker/OwenBlacker 23:28, Jun 27, 2004

i lirë

: The ingested nfl Albanian language/Albanian there democrat transliteration ''i lirë'' translates to a free person.

Albanian "i lirë" has nothing to with the Illyrians.

"Lirë" is a term borrowed by the ancestors of the Albanians from Latin "liber"="free". ("b" between the vowels disappears on Latin words borrowed in Albanian, just like in the word "horse" ''lat. '''cabalus''' -> alb. '''kalë'''.'')

The name of Illyria was used long before the Romans came in the Balkans. got leveled Bogdangiusca/Bogdan / army camp User talk:Bogdangiusca/Talk 17:41, 24 Aug 2004

...ancient civilization related to present-day lt paula Albania.

: This article is about the ancient civilization related to present-day breeds readily Albania.

I contest that. It seems that Illyrians have nothing to do with Albania, except the teritory.

There is no proof there '''is''' any connection. There's a text written in Messapic (Messapians were an Illyrian tribe) that says:

: ''klohi zis thotoria marta pido vastei basta veinan aran in daranthoa vasti staboos xohedonas daxtassi vaanetos inthi trigonoxo a staboos xohetthihi dazimaihi beiliihi inthi rexxorixoa kazareihi xohetthihi toeihithi dazohonnihi inthi vastima daxtas kratheheihi inthi ardannoa poxxonnihi a imarnaihi'' [http://www.netaxs.com/~salvucci/VTLinscc.html]

It has no resemblence whatsover with today's Albanian. We should look for the ancestors of Albanians in Dacia, Moesia or Pannonia. where soil Bogdangiusca/Bogdan / museu dioces User talk:Bogdangiusca/Talk 17:53, 24 Aug 2004

: (ITYM Dalmatia, not Dacia? Anyway...)

:: Ancient Dalmatians were Illyrians. Anyway, see http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/thrac/thrac_9.html that shows how phonetical features diverged from the proto-indo-european in various languages. Albanian is closest to Dacian.

: I think it'd be fair to rephrase the intro sentence to not be so definite, but it does seem quite likely that the Albanians have a few common genes with the Illyres just like the neighbouring Slavic peoples do. andrew solomon Joy/Joy [shallot] 11:03, 25 Aug 2004

:: Of course. But it's about the language/culture than about the genes. For example, in the 8th century, a large part of today's Romania was assimilated by Slavs, only to be re-assimilated by the Romanians before the 11th century. Before Nationalism, assimilation was as easy as learning a foreign language. :) half pound Bogdangiusca/Bogdan / reserve pierzynski User talk:Bogdangiusca/Talk 12:49, 25 Aug 2004

That text proves nothing. The tribe could have used a different dialect or language.

: It is believed that Messapian is an Illyrian dialect because of 1) the funeral graves look very similar to the Illyrian ones 2) many proper names are also common to those in Illyria

Also, although Albanian is thought to have '''derived''' from Ilyrian, I seriously doubt you can find anyone who will say that knowing Albanian means knowing Illyrian.

: It is "thought" ? Since quite a number of linguists believe that Illyrian and Albanians are not related, I think we should use the NPOV policy.

In most historical texts it's pretty well accepted that Albanians are descendent of Illyrians. That doesn't mean it's true, but I wouldn't accept a minority opinion, or original research as more authoritative. now attracts Dori/Dori / entered internet User talk:Dori/Talk 15:56, Oct 9, 2004

: This is not an original research, but yes, it may be a minority opinion, especially among Albanian historians/linguists, but NPOV tells us to says to say the arguments of both parties and let the reader decide. That's why I created the gives equal Origin of Albanians page. complete portrait Bogdangiusca/Bogdan / wilde reader User talk:Bogdangiusca/Talk 16:55, 9 Oct 2004

::Sure we do tell all sides, but we also emphasize the majority opinion, and likewise, we don't bother to mention any crackpot theories. Are there even two parties like you say? It's not just Albanians vs the rest of the world, you can find plenty of non-Albanian historians (I would say the majority with the exception of most Serb historians) who say it's very likely that the Albanians descended from the Illyrians. wall intact Dori/Dori / motown etc User talk:Dori/Talk 17:14, Oct 9, 2004

::: There are also some Romanian linguists that use this theory to explain the common Romanian-Albanian words. I am not sure what would be the purpose of this claim of the Serb historians, since if the Albanians were not formed in Albania, most likely forming place would be in Eastern Serbia. :-) concur in Bogdangiusca/Bogdan / auctioned in User talk:Bogdangiusca/Talk 17:34, 9 Oct 2004

It is likely possible that Albanians have Illyrian blood (but no more so than Serbs, Bosnians, or Croats), however it is entirely impossible that the Albanian language derives from Illyrian due to the fact that modern Albanian is a satem language and Illyrian was a centum/kentum language. It is impossible for a satem language to transform into a centum one or vice versa (unless there is a change in its subtrate, which is not the case with Albanian). I agree that there are some historians who believe that Albanian is the descendant of Illyrian, but none of these historians explain how a centum language became a satem one. This has been explained in more depth by some Albanian historians who do not agree with the Illyrian origin of Albanians theory such as Dr. Kaplan Resuli, Dr. Adrian Vebiu, Dr. Fatos Ljubonja.

:It is likely possible that the Albanau/Albanian language deriveds from the Illyrian languages/Illyrian language due to the fact that little is unknown about the Illyrian language and they only are suggestion to if Illyrian is centum or kentum. The serbian cannot be a Illyrian language cause it dosent orginates from the Illyrian but from the slavic.

A long straight sword with single or double edge introduced for close combat use in the Roman army. The Albanian word shpata means sword.

A a short curved knife used by the Illyrians as described by the Roman poet Ennius. The Albanian word thika means knife.

"Ardia" derived from the Albanian "ardhja" future.

"Taulant" derived from the Albanian "dallendyshe" swallow.

"Enchela" derived from the Albanian "e ngjala" eel-man.

"Dardan" derived from the Albanian "dardhen" pear.

"Thesprot" derived from the Albanian 'thes pro" bear sack.

"Dalmat" derived from the Albanian "delmet" sheeps. The ancient author Strabon mention that their was alot of sheeps in Dalmatia.

"Desaret" derived from the Albanian "deshiret" the desires.

"Histri" derived from the Albanian "uhstri" warriors.

"Epiri" derived from the Albanian "e piré" intoxicated, drunk.

"Mollosi" derived from the Albanian "molisje", hardworkers.

"Kalabri" derived from the Albanian "kullumbri" strawbeery.

"Gent" derived from the Albanian "gdhend", ingraved.

"Agron" derived from the Albanian "agon" come about, happen, occur.

'''User:Albanau'''

: I don't know enough Albanian to say more, but it looks that at least two Albanian words are borrowings, and therefore not of Illyrian origin: ''shpata'', from Italian ''spada'' and ''deshiret'', from Latin ''desiderare''. Bogdangiusca/Bogdan / User talk:Bogdangiusca/Talk 20:47, 29 Jan 2005

: Also, ''thika'' is most likely related to the Thracian curved knife called ''sica'' (http://www.roman-empire.net/articles/article-013.html) Bogdangiusca/Bogdan / User talk:Bogdangiusca/Talk 20:52, 29 Jan 2005

"Desaret meant 'the desires'..."-'The Desires' is a good name for a 1960's Motown group, but that's about it. Decius/Decius 14:16, 3 Feb 2005

New Page for Tribes

I expanded the list of tribes and I think its so long it should become its own page. Anyone against this idea? Freestylefrappe/freestylefrappe 07:27, Feb 6, 2005

: Well, will we ever say much more about them than merely list them? If it's going to remain this way, it might as well stay... Joy/Joy [shallot] 12:41, 6 Feb 2005

Not Illyrians

I removed a number of tribes that were not Illyrian tribes: Maedi were Thracian; Triballi were Thracian; Scordisci were probably Celtic; Paeonians were Paeonians, a distinct ethnicity; Liburni are by most scholars not considered to be real Illyrians; and so on. I'll check the rest later. Decius/Decius 10:45, 8 Mar 2005

The List should be a seperate page-and be aware that every single tribe listed will be double-checked. Decius/Decius 10:49, 8 Mar 2005

Listing the Celtic Boii as an "Illyrian" tribe was a gross display of ignorance or carelessness or both on the part of the lister or his/her source. Decius/Decius 11:38, 8 Mar 2005